Martinka Consulting's Getting the Deal Done Podcast
Martinka Consulting's Getting the Deal Done Podcast
The Art of the Question with Special Guest Sean Grace
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Sean Grace is the author of, "The Art of the Question." Sean is the owner of Peak LUMA (www.peakluma.com) and an advisor and coach to people in all levels of business. He offers comprehensive training sessions on using questions (and more) to help people advance their careers and improve their business operations.
During our discussion we cover:
- The difference between leadership, management, and coaching
- The importance of questions and the different type of questions
- The three sections of his book: Knowledge, Interpersonal, and Innovation and how questions play an important part
John Martinka
Jessica Martinka
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This is John Martinka and welcome to the Getting the Deal Done podcast. Today, my special guest is Sean Grace with Peak Luma. Sean is outside or right in, I guess, center of Philadelphia, and the author of The Art of the Question, which is uh a fascinating topic. Uh people don't ask enough questions, and sounds like you're a leader on changing that. So what drove you to write this book?
SPEAKER_01Uh well, first of all, thanks for having me on, uh, John. Um the the book really came out of uh uh a workshop I had created uh about six years ago called The Art of the Question. And that workshop uh really came out of a demand from my other communication workshops regarding questioning uh as a process. Uh and after a while I said maybe this deserves its own dedicated workshop. Uh so I put together that and then ran the workshop for many years. It's still I continue to run it. And uh as a result of uh a couple of hundred people running through it and getting feedback and refining uh the uh the content and the learning and the material and the concepts, uh I felt, wow, I you know I have a uh a lot here that uh maybe I should at one point turn into uh a book. Uh so um uh after you know several hundred pages of notes and other things, I decided let me sit down and put this together. Uh however, that task was a lot more difficult than I anticipated. Uh so it took uh a lot longer and it was more treacherous in a lot of ways to put together a book that uh a lot of people could have access to uh and uh covers the number of topics that it does, but in both a uh sort of an educational as well as narrative context. So that was a real challenge, but uh an incredible learning experience. And uh so far the reaction has been pretty positive. So it's called The Art of the Question: a Guide for Seekers, Dreamers, Problem Solvers, and Leaders. And the slug is better decisions, deeper connections, breakthrough ideas. And that pretty much sums it up.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So I noticed that you know you talked about leaders and the difference between leadership, management, and coaching. Why don't we go into that a little bit?
SPEAKER_01Hmm, right. Um, well, uh, you know, in the past there wasn't a whole lot of difference between management and leadership, uh, at least uh in a lot of sort of corporate culture uh for a lot of the last, you know, maybe uh generation or so. That's of course changed uh with the idea that you know management is is more focused on uh process, uh leadership is more about inspiration and vision. And uh I think uh not all managers are leaders, uh, but hopefully all leaders uh are able to certainly manage as well. So there there's a different mindset there. And then there's the coaching aspect uh which uh sort of takes the leadership idea and puts it in a more uh practical uh feedback loop, whereas leadership uh certainly also entails uh that one-on-one communication. Uh but it's more about vision and it's more about inspiration and strategy. Uh whereas coaching is more about directed learning and directed feedback, and management is more about mechanical processes that you know are focused on results and focused on efficiencies. Uh so I think you know you can uh the ideal manager has all those abilities, right? The ability to coach one-on-one with their various uh direct reports. They're able to also create an inspiring vision and lead with smart strategy and show by example, uh, as well as being able to manage PL and other aspects of uh of managing a results process that's focused on delivering results, which is at the end of the day, certainly what management is supposed to deliver. So in a nutshell, that's kind of how I distinguish those three, and they are distinctive skill sets. Uh and uh leadership, I think, is the common denominator that uh I think could could sort of define better management as well as great coaching. Uh so I think there's there's the the more common thread, but each of them have specific methodologies and processes uh and different motivations, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00It makes sense. So the coaching we're talking about is someone in leadership or management coaching their people to be able to elevate versus the coaching you or I or others would do from the outside, or and I guess both.
SPEAKER_01I think it's I think it's both. When I think of coaching, I also think of goals. Uh I think of uh the the coach is and it is more one-on-one relationship when I think of coaching. Uh it doesn't mean it can't be one-on-many, but I do think of it as a more of a one-on-one directed uh dynamic. Uh managing, I think, is more one-to-many, and leadership is one to many. Uh, but you know, all of these things are fluid, and I don't think there's there's uh, you know, so one dominates necessarily the other.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So anyway, that's that's my thought on that.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So I think the the art of the question and what makes a good question?
SPEAKER_01Well, I guess it depends on what your goal is. Uh great questions could also just be part of terrific communication where uh a lively conversation is often seated with great questions, both rhetorical uh as well as uh clarifying, as well as probing. Um and uh so um you know it depends on the context. If you're problem solving and it's more directed, then your your questioning is more deductive uh as opposed to maybe maybe an inductive process. So when you're deducing uh a known potential answer to something, you know, your questions are gonna be much more deductive oriented. Um if you're looking to create something and be innovative, uh your questions turn into a completely different thing, right? So a great question is how might we? Or what if? And those questions uh open up uh more of the divergent uh process in our minds as far as exploring ideas versus the more convergent process, uh say in an inductive reasoning uh process like problem solving, um, where you're very focused. Now it doesn't mean that uh creativity isn't problem solving, they're all problem solving, but it depends on you know the direction of it. Are you looking to innovate and create, or are you looking to get to a known solution uh that you just have to kind of deduce to get to? So I guess it depends. Uh what's a great question? What do you think is a great question?
SPEAKER_00Oh, I have a I can drive my especially my family members nuts by asking why. Why and why not.
SPEAKER_01Why is a powerful question. Yeah. Um there are problems with why, but uh but why is uh is is a very powerful interrogative. Uh where it can come into problems is with in interpersonal communication, where you tend to maybe use why as a as an indirect way of um accusing, uh or uh it could be perceived that way, right? Uh why is the house always a mess? You know, why do you always do it this way? Why is you know, where you could create a defensive uh reaction, right? However, why is is the fundamental question we ask about purpose uh and about mission? You know, why why we get up in the morning and why we do so very powerful. Yet when it comes to uh humans and people to people, sometimes it could pose uh some dangers.
SPEAKER_00You're right. I agree. I you know, it's you know, in a simple term, someone says, Well, I think we should go to the park this afternoon. Well, why? Why would we go to the park instead of going to uh the beach kind of thing? But I I can see where your point when it's uh why didn't why don't why do you keep doing it that way? It takes on a aggressive tone.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I I learned many years ago in the world of interpersonal communication that substituting how with why uh is often more prescriptive. So if someone says to me, uh, let's go to the park, instead of saying why, you might say, Well, how about we consider going to the beach? Or how about we start at the park and then go to the beach? Um, there's also a rule in the world of improvisation that's called the rule of agreement, where we build on each other's ideas uh instead of um shooting them down uh or you know completely shifting the direction. Now there are times for that too. But so um, for instance, why don't we go to the park? Yes, and we could also consider going to the beach. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So you know, the when you talk about the art of the question, uh, you know, I run into people and they always say, Well, I'm not good at sales, and you know, they confuse that with you know the image of the old used car salesperson. And you know, I I like to say sales good salespeople are good questioners. Uh let's talk about that for a minute uh or two uh when you get in with, you know, as Daniel Pink says in his book to sell is human. Uh it's you know, we're all selling to someone at some point.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, I I certainly my first uh exposure to serious questioning was in the world of sales. So when I was studying sales as a as a young man uh just out of college, I uh uh I learned quickly that questioning uh was a very powerful element in the selling process. Uh I discovered that uh it's a magic in the role of discovery itself, being able to determine needs uh to be able to assess pain points and problems by asking efficient questions, especially when you have limited time. So you have to get good at asking questions that um get to the point and get to, of course, hopefully where you want to get it to. Uh so I also uh understood the uh manipulative aspect of questioning from leading questions and things like that. Um so I saw the power on the persuasion side of where questions come from and how they can be uh used to manipulate psychologically. Um it also elevated my appreciation for the power of them. So yeah, selling um without good questions, I believe uh it's gonna take you uh a whole lot longer um to uh to you know make progress in the world of sales. I think it did a fundamental skill. Yeah, you won't know what problem you're trying to solve. That's right. And you know, a lot of times the client or the prospect doesn't know what problem uh they have or need to solve either. So great questioning is not only just for your benefit, it's primarily for the power of reflecting back to the person that you're talking to to have them reframe how they might see their situation. So it's both a part of knowledge um attained for yourself as a salesperson, but uh I think more importantly, as a as a tool of reflection and um introspection on the other person's part to see if you know there's a different way to look at something.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, let's go back to your book, Sean. Um it's got three sections uh in simple terms about knowledge, interpersonal, and innovation. Let's talk about the three sections briefly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Uh the way I laid the book out was uh let's let's look at these three big aspects of where questions come in. But let's start with uh um the foundations. Uh this first chapter is called Curiosity, right? Where do we get our sense of uh of curiosity and uh and our our need or our want and our wish to ask questions and our sense of inquiry and how that changes from childhood into adulthood. And then I dip a little into the great philosophers who kind of created the first um frameworks for questioning. Those would be Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, and which led to the Socratic method of questioning with Socrates, and eventually the scientific method of questioning when it came to Aristotle. Uh and then I move into sort of the idea of knowing yourself, uh that sort of from a leadership standpoint and just from a self-awareness standpoint, a mindfulness standpoint. So we get into that, and then I get into a little bit of critical thinking as to how to be able to navigate knowledge uh uh and be able to use some frameworks to ask the right questions to understand uh what's real and what's not. Uh then I move into the world of people communication, and starting with listening, which is the most important skill, and then I get into other areas like conflict uh resolution, uh persuasion and negotiation, uh, and uh things around relationships, uh parenting, and such like that. Uh and then I end the book uh with a whole section on creative collaboration, creative thinking, creative problem solving, and especially innovation. Uh, so how questions play a role in all of those vital aspects of creative thinking and innovating uh and problem solving in a more creative way. So that's sort of the uh the sum of it all, uh all with the common thread of the art of the question.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So I'm I'm the kind of person who learns by doing examples. Give us an example of you know your what you've written about, how it's worked with people.
SPEAKER_01Well, I have a model called the three-phase model that I created many years. Actually, I created uh when I was first in sales, I kind of sketched out this thing called the three-phase model. And it and it essentially breaks down how one would be uh create a strategic framework or process for questioning. Uh and it could be used in sales or it could be used in interpersonal relationships, problem solving, or uh, well, mostly with people and uh uh or conflict resolution. Uh so the three-phase model starts with um you first you discover, and that's probe, elicit, and clarify. And the second with challenge, uh, where you challenge assumptions, you uh f you know kind of inspire reflection and reframing. And then your final phase is infer, which is where you hypothesize, conclude, and create next steps. Um and it's sort of a funnel, if you want to look at that way, uh, or a pyramid, um, and uh upside down. Uh so uh so that that model uh I started teaching when I started this course about six years ago, and certainly uh that is something that tends to feed back to me over time, that that's a very helpful tool in uh in other things. And that's also applied to uh job interviewing or uh having a conversation regarding a promotion request. Uh so I create have several methodologies and models that you could use in order to better navigate these you know sometimes difficult conversations uh from a standpoint of questioning. Um so that's that's one thing.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I get it. Uh I'm I'm gonna a plug for shameless plug for myself. I've got a new book coming out called Exit, Restyle, Grace, and More Money. And there's in one of the sections, chapters, there's for business owners slash sellers, there's here's a list of questions you will want to ask potential buyers, and it's broken into categories depending on the type of buyer. And here's a list of questions a good buyer will ask you that you should be prepared for. Because if I'm working with someone and they're they're buying or selling a business, it's you know the people who ask the good questions get taken seriously.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, it's a it's a sign of good critical thinking and and good strategic thinking as well.
SPEAKER_00So let's die digress a bit and talk about the kind of work you do, uh, what kind of clients, uh yeah, the size of company, the end any industry, any level of people within that company that you work with.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, for the past uh few years, um uh I would say the majority of the work that I'm doing is in the in-person workshops uh for large STEM companies. Uh so people in um, you know, sort of the uh the biopharma arena uh as well as the medical device arena, uh robotics, um, and and other areas such as that. And it's a combination between uh management who are leading teams of anywhere from you know seven to fifteen uh direct reports plus, um, as well as I work with leadership development programs for young, high potential uh employees who uh who are looking uh for to be groomed to be better communicators, better problem solvers, better creative thinkers. So uh so it's a combination of of those uh you know those types of clientele. And they're typically you know, not huge workshops, but anywhere from you know 15 to 30 participants. Uh I also do a fair amount of virtual, uh, but I would say these days I'm doing more in-person, uh, which I think has more impact. But certainly some of the global clients uh where they have lots of employees around the world in different time zones, that doesn't make a lot of sense uh to bring everybody together uh for this. So we typically do a uh you know a series of virtual workshops. Um so that's the kind of work uh that, and in addition to that, with Grace Media Works, I also do video production work uh that's related also to some of the same clients uh where they're looking to market or they're looking to uh produce training material uh or internal communications work.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Uh any final points you would like to make and then share how people can get hold of you?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, uh certainly, you know, the art of the question uh now available at amazon.com. Uh the uh the subtitle is a guide for seekers, dreamers, problem solvers, and leaders. And uh you can reach me uh through my website peakluma, p-e-a-k-l-m-a dot com. And peak luma basically uh is the metaphor for what what we do here, which is uh sort of elevate, uh reach your peak potential uh while also really bringing out the brightest light within you uh and as well as bringing you some enlightenment. So it's all of those ideas put together, peak, luma, uh basically, you know, leadership development at its best. Uh so that's how to that's how to reach me or through Grace Media Works as well. But Peak Luma may be a uh a more direct way to go.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Peak Luma, your book is on Amazon. I thank you for being here, Sean. Uh interesting. I mean, there's I can just tell you there's so much need for uh what you do for you know people in, whether it's leadership or management or trying to get into leadership and management. Uh and you know, questioning if you don't know, if you don't know what the obstacles are, you how do you overcome them? And you you find out what they are by asking a question. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, John.